Coding Experiments: LainOS - the nExt generation of UNIX. Click to Return to the Home Page Picture of Lain Courtesy of Triangle Staff / Pioneer LDC.


LainOS Developers Meeting #5
Nov 22nd, 2003 (#LainOS)
Topic: "Version Numbers, Assignments, Help-Wanted"

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([23:20:41] @Zn4k) soo....
([23:20:48] @Neovanglist[Work]) ok lets get started
* ([23:20:52] FireSlash) sets mode: +v FireSlash
([23:20:59] @Xuric) :P
([23:21:12] FireSlash)
([23:21:13] @Zn4k) k
([23:21:14] @Neovanglist[Work]) lol
([23:21:20] FireSlash) " even.
([23:21:21] @Xuric) heh
([23:21:27] @minddog) thats not proper xml
<§> [23:21:32] #LainOS : Xuric has Voice'd E0x
<§> [23:21:32] #LainOS : Xuric has Voice'd FireSlash
([23:21:33] +FireSlash) Yeah, I noticed :P
([23:21:36] @minddog) v
([23:21:44] +FireSlash) I was refering to #lainosdev, but ok
([23:21:46] @Zn4k) agenda?
([23:21:49] @Xuric) <hint type="subtle"><mode>v</mode></hint>
([23:21:57] @Neovanglist[Work]) well
([23:22:12] @Neovanglist[Work]) first off, lets get a "state of the union" so to speak
([23:22:26] @Zn4k) k
([23:22:29] @Neovanglist[Work]) Xuric, since your the forum guy, any talk about lainwm 1.3?
([23:22:31] @Neovanglist[Work]) bugs, issues, etc?
([23:22:40] @Xuric) haven't heard any bug reports
([23:22:43] +FireSlash) if(!Instigator.voiced) SetMode(Instigator, S_VOICED);
([23:22:59] @Xuric) though i haven't heard much of anything
* ([23:23:04] +FireSlash) stops before someone hurts him
([23:23:07] @Neovanglist[Work]) hrmm I thought as much
([23:23:28] @Neovanglist[Work]) ok, well how about you Zn4k?
([23:23:32] @Zn4k) bugs?
([23:23:35] @Neovanglist[Work]) I know you've been working on fluxbox
([23:23:37] +FireSlash) 1.3 really doesn't have much to complain about, since most of the tools needed to easily modify things are lacking.
([23:23:39] @Neovanglist[Work]) how is that going
([23:23:46] @Xuric) ok, there was the guy who didn't have make installed, but.. well.. that's not exactly a bug
([23:23:53] @Zn4k) I have an idea what I have to do after hacking at it for a week
([23:24:18] @Zn4k) I kinda have it mapped out in my mind what I need to do
([23:24:24] @Neovanglist[Work]) well lets hear it :P
([23:24:49] @Zn4k) instead of trying to hack the current FbWindow class to death
([23:25:07] @Zn4k) I'm just going to create a new one that constructs the window with all the same attributes, but transparent
([23:25:22] @Neovanglist[Work]) cool, I was talking to minddog about that today
([23:25:28] @Neovanglist[Work]) that also makes it easy for us to do a couple things
([23:25:30] @Zn4k) the write a new menu class based on the old one, but different updated code obviously, for the Xft functions
([23:25:37] @Neovanglist[Work]) one, enable or disable translucency
([23:25:40] @Zn4k) updating*
([23:25:45] @Neovanglist[Work]) according to if the machine has RENDER extensions
([23:26:09] @Neovanglist[Work]) and also, it allows me to more easily impliment a framebuffer
([23:26:15] @Zn4k) I was thinking of just putting the classes in a new source and head file each, something like FbWindowT, and MenuT
([23:26:44] @minddog) Zn4k: does fluxbox use interfaces?
([23:26:57] @minddog) class implements interfaces, sort of speak
([23:27:08] @Zn4k) what do you mean exactly?
* ([23:27:11] +Ritalin) is back (gone 02:54:45)
([23:27:23] @minddog) Menu implements IMenu
([23:27:40] @Zn4k) are you talking about inheritance?
([23:27:42] @minddog) and all handling is done with virtuals from IMenu, simple OO
([23:28:00] @Zn4k) it's derived from FbWindow, which is itself derived from FbDrawable
([23:28:18] @minddog) so no on interfaces
([23:28:35] @Zn4k) well FbWindow impliments some earlier virtual functions in Drawable I believe
([23:29:09] @Zn4k) if thats what you mean :P
([23:29:14] @Neovanglist[Work]) ok, so lets go ahead on the making new classes
* ([23:29:31] +FireSlash) pretends he knows what to do
([23:29:32] @Neovanglist[Work]) after you get them stubbed out, I'll take a look at the code too
([23:29:37] @Neovanglist[Work]) and hack on it with you
([23:29:40] @Zn4k) ok
([23:29:48] @minddog) overriding those methods with methods that use transparency is what i'm trying to get to
([23:30:22] @Zn4k) yeah I understand
([23:30:36] @minddog) k cool
([23:30:52] @Neovanglist[Work]) alright, next up
([23:30:59] @Zn4k) and don't impliment pixmaps, because I don't believe they work with tranparencies
([23:31:05] @Neovanglist[Work]) pixmaps don't
([23:31:21] @Neovanglist[Work]) that won't be possible until I hack some of this new composite stuff into Xlib
([23:31:22] @Zn4k) ok the original menu class uses pixmaps to fake transparency, and the style pixmaps
([23:31:26] +FireSlash) They can be made to, I think.
<§> [23:31:37] #LainOS: minddog has quit: Quit: And now I'm ridin' down Rodeo with a shot gun..
([23:31:46] +FireSlash) Just use pallete entry #1, but thats a pretty ugly hack.
([23:32:01] @Neovanglist[Work]) that is using an alpha channel
([23:32:10] +FireSlash) But you would need to write a new routine for rendering the pixmaps
([23:32:11] @Neovanglist[Work]) but that would take bitmap comperasion each time it's drawm
([23:32:13] @Neovanglist[Work]) which is slow
<§> [23:32:20] #LainOS : minddog joins.
<§> [23:32:21] #LainOS: ChanServ has OP'd minddog
([23:32:33] +FireSlash) Me being a lazy hack, would probably do just that.
([23:32:49] @Zn4k) so Neo whats next?
([23:33:04] @Neovanglist[Work]) Well, next up is the UI contest
([23:33:05] @minddog) topic.Pop()
([23:33:05] +FireSlash) The other option would be to start from scratch and manually decode it into a surface...
([23:33:32] @Neovanglist[Work]) I've been kind of running this through my mind, and I thought of some pretty easy prizes for it
([23:34:17] @Zn4k) like what?
([23:34:19] @Neovanglist[Work]) hrmm
([23:34:25] @Neovanglist[Work]) like PC hardware and such
([23:34:35] @Zn4k) I thought as much
([23:34:37] @Xuric) easier said than done
([23:34:55] @Xuric) shall we pool resources, or do we need to start finding leftovers around our homes?
([23:35:22] +FireSlash) Heh. Unless you want ISA stuff....
([23:35:23] @Neovanglist[Work]) well, I think we should wait until we know it would be worthwhile
([23:35:34] @Zn4k) ok
([23:35:38] +FireSlash) I think I have a video card with a TV tuner if you have a VLB slot handy
([23:35:39] @Neovanglist[Work]) I mean we need a lot of good ideas to make it worth our effort, as we could just do it ourselves
([23:35:49] @Neovanglist[Work]) I'm thinking at least 100 applicants
([23:35:54] @Xuric) eek
([23:36:01] @Xuric) we'd need an advertising campaign then
([23:36:08] @Neovanglist[Work]) indeed
([23:36:16] @Xuric) i dunno how many visits we get in any given period
([23:36:21] +FireSlash) 100 is a LOT of people doing a LOT of graphics and/or code work
([23:36:21] @Neovanglist[Work]) but I think we will have a good following if LainWM 1.4 on fluxbox works wel,
([23:36:23] @Neovanglist[Work]) *well
([23:36:29] @Neovanglist[Work]) well it doesn't have to be code
([23:36:32] @Neovanglist[Work]) fabrications work too
([23:36:41] @Xuric) right
([23:36:42] @Zn4k) so far it seems everyone that comes in showing me a design , has something like a windows task bar, and a clock =/
([23:36:54] @Xuric) anything we can view from anywhere that exhibits a UI-design idea
([23:36:56] @Neovanglist[Work]) well yea, thats what I'm trying to avoid
([23:37:02] +FireSlash) The reason I don't use 1.3 is simply because its not practial. Theres no easy way to tinker it to be functional in the way I want.
([23:37:05] @Neovanglist[Work]) the whole pitch is a "new" thing
([23:37:10] @Neovanglist[Work]) well of course not
([23:37:30] @Neovanglist[Work]) 1.0/1.1 were just proof of concept and what I had at the time
([23:37:32] +FireSlash) Hence I think we might want to address that at some point.
([23:37:42] @Neovanglist[Work]) and 1.2/1.3 were fixups on 1.0/1.1
([23:38:00] @Xuric) 1.4 stands to be the 'working' base
([23:38:04] @Neovanglist[Work]) right
([23:38:10] @Neovanglist[Work]) it will be functional as a real window manager
([23:38:16] +FireSlash) Very odd versioning.
([23:38:18] @Xuric) what about 2.0? a variant?
([23:38:35] @Neovanglist[Work]) 2.0 is the real "Lainesque" 3D window manager
([23:38:37] @minddog) how about x.y.z versioning?
([23:38:48] +FireSlash) Usually x for re-builds. 1.x for major changes, and 1.1.x for minor changing
([23:38:51] +FireSlash) Yeah...
([23:39:00] @Neovanglist[Work]) yea, I know that was a mistake on my part early on
([23:39:08] @Xuric) [major].[minor].[patchlevel]
([23:39:10] @minddog) even versions for releases
([23:39:10] @Neovanglist[Work]) I didn't change it as to avoid further confusion
([23:39:17] @minddog) odd number for dev
([23:39:50] @minddog) at the patchlevel
([23:40:06] @Neovanglist[Work]) well then lets do thsi
([23:40:07] @Neovanglist[Work]) *this
([23:40:08] +E0x) i dont any about 3d o programing but i think the 3d and grafict creative ppl need see that i think is very cool Grafical texture and look
([23:40:12] @Zn4k) ok
([23:40:12] +E0x) :
* ([23:40:30] +FireSlash) knows some OpenGL stuff, but nothing really major
* ([23:40:38] +E0x)
([23:40:40] @Neovanglist[Work]) 1.4.0 will be the first FluxBox based release
([23:40:46] @Neovanglist[Work]) 1.4.1/etc would be patches on that
([23:40:50] +E0x) this can be a nice GUI
([23:40:54] +FireSlash) Better late than never :)
([23:41:13] @Neovanglist[Work]) 1.5.0 would add new functionality on 1.4.0
([23:41:14] @Xuric) topic.fork(version-numbering)
([23:41:21] @Neovanglist[Work]) see what I mean?
([23:41:23] @Xuric) right
([23:41:35] @Zn4k) Neo what I'm thinking is use the already existing xresource is the style for menu alpha, for the alpha value
([23:41:36] +FireSlash) So, what all are you planning on doing as far as helper-applications go?
([23:41:47] @Neovanglist[Work]) FireSlash: Helper Applications?
([23:41:48] @Zn4k) which is I believe 0-255, 255 for opaque
([23:42:25] +FireSlash) Maybe a bad term. I meant smaller programs that really support the WM. ex. Kicker for KDE.
([23:42:29] @Zn4k) can get the decimal alpha value just by dividing by 255
([23:42:36] @Neovanglist[Work]) ahh I see what you're saying
([23:42:42] @Neovanglist[Work]) ok one at a time
([23:42:44] +FireSlash) Its somewhat hard to get 5 people working on fluxbox itself at the same time and not step on eathother
([23:43:04] @minddog) setup a working group
([23:43:04] @Zn4k) fire it's called cvs
([23:43:20] @Neovanglist[Work]) FireSlash: I was planning to create those as part of LainWM
([23:43:22] @minddog) choose tasks and let people know
([23:43:23] @Zn4k) and since we are usually all on IRC or the forums everyday
([23:43:26] @Zn4k) not much of a problem
([23:43:36] +FireSlash) cvs or not, its still a pain. I have done it tons of times in UScript where someone alters the superclass of what I'm working on and all hell breaks loose.
([23:43:48] @Neovanglist[Work]) eh?
([23:44:02] +FireSlash) Oh, sorry, I'm an UnrealScript nut. :)
([23:44:08] @Zn4k) Fire I think we can handle it since we are usually around to talk to each other
([23:44:09] @Neovanglist[Work]) you just tell people whats up before you commit
([23:44:17] +FireSlash) Ok.
([23:44:32] @Xuric) if nothing else, i can pass the word along as to 'what's goin on, eh?'
([23:44:38] @Neovanglist[Work]) that works :P
([23:44:46] @Neovanglist[Work]) Zn4k: clarify a bit, I'm not following you
([23:44:54] @Zn4k) about what?
([23:44:59] @minddog) use the Changelog or die~!
([23:44:59] @Neovanglist[Work]) using the xresorce
([23:45:02] @Zn4k) oh
([23:45:10] @Zn4k) right now you can have menu transparencies in fluxbox
([23:45:10] +FireSlash) Changelog, pfft ;)
([23:45:11] @minddog) every commit, changelog!
([23:45:15] @Zn4k) well it's just showing the root pixmap
([23:45:19] @Neovanglist[Work]) ahh
([23:45:20] @Neovanglist[Work]) ok
* ([23:45:20] +FireSlash) is the master of painfully old documentation
([23:45:30] @Zn4k) and to keep it capatible with existing styles
([23:45:34] @Zn4k) I could just use it's value
([23:45:35] @Neovanglist[Work]) so use the opaque value that right now it's applying to a BG pixmap directly to the XFT extension
([23:45:42] @Zn4k) yeah
([23:45:45] @Neovanglist[Work]) got it
([23:45:47] @Neovanglist[Work]) sounds good to me
([23:45:54] @Xuric) me too... i think
[23:46:08] * @Xuric only understands the concept, not the code. :)
([23:46:22] @Neovanglist[Work]) hehe
* ([23:46:23] +FireSlash) understands the code, not the concept :o
([23:46:30] @Neovanglist[Work]) ok next
([23:46:37] @minddog) Xuric: only need to understand the concepts to sell it ;)
([23:46:39] @Xuric) back to the UI contest?
([23:46:41] +FireSlash) i++;
([23:46:45] @Neovanglist[Work]) well like I said
([23:46:55] @Neovanglist[Work]) UI contest is on hold until we get the userbase from 1.4
([23:47:00] @Xuric) minddog: at least i have that :)
([23:47:08] @Xuric) righto
([23:47:41] @Zn4k) Neo when 1.4 is released, I see a patch being released to the fluxbox community very soon by one of the various hackers on fluxbox style sites
* ([23:48:20] +E0x) Xuric and FireSlash need a fusion
* ([23:48:33] +FireSlash) += Zuric;
([23:48:37] @Zn4k) just hoping interest won't drop off
([23:48:44] @Neovanglist[Work]) sorry got distracted
([23:48:46] @Neovanglist[Work]) anyway
([23:48:47] @Zn4k) k
([23:48:55] +FireSlash) In short, were going to have to do more than transparencies to make this really fly.
([23:48:57] @Neovanglist[Work]) so, lets continue hacking at 1.4 to get it ready and usable
([23:49:13] @Xuric) gotta start somewhere
([23:49:28] @Neovanglist[Work]) after 1.4 is w/o any showstopper bugs, lets move on to 1.5 and add some real functionality
([23:49:37] @Zn4k) ok
([23:49:39] @Xuric) k
([23:49:43] @Neovanglist[Work]) I'm thinking lets add a desktop environment for 1.5
([23:49:51] @Neovanglist[Work]) like a background, to put icons on and such
([23:49:55] @Neovanglist[Work]) kind of like what KDE and Gnome have
([23:50:13] +E0x) lite how xfce4 /
([23:50:15] +E0x) ?
([23:50:20] +E0x)
([23:50:21] +FireSlash) I think it would be really helpful to make a list of all the tasks we want done per-version so we all know what we can be working on
([23:50:26] @Neovanglist[Work]) something like that
([23:50:39] @Xuric) fireslash: that's what the dev-meetings are for
([23:50:39] @Neovanglist[Work]) FireSlash: I'm already working on something like that
([23:50:51] +FireSlash) Danke Neo :)
([23:51:01] @Xuric) and neo will have a list...
([23:51:04] @Xuric) ;)
([23:51:23] +FireSlash) No offense, but I don't intend on making every dev meeting.
([23:51:28] @Neovanglist[Work]) no, it's cool
([23:51:28] +FireSlash) 23:53.
([23:51:44] @Xuric) yeah
([23:51:52] @Xuric) with luck we'll have a log of them all
([23:52:02] @Neovanglist[Work]) I log everything on my home machine
([23:52:07] @Neovanglist[Work]) alright, any other issues anyone else have in mind?
([23:52:13] @Xuric) i have something
([23:52:27] @Xuric) what kind of help are we looking for?
([23:52:31] @Xuric) presently.
([23:52:36] @Neovanglist[Work]) developer wise?
([23:52:40] @Xuric) anything
([23:53:01] @Neovanglist[Work]) well more programmers is always a good thing
([23:53:04] @Xuric) Every once in a while, someone will come along saying 'I wanna help! but I dont know *nix" or "i dunno how to code" or some such
([23:53:22] @Xuric) what kind of programmers?
([23:53:26] @Zn4k) it's kinda hard to give out tasks when you get too many developers
([23:53:28] @Xuric) (don't say 'c')
([23:53:31] @Zn4k) especially ones who don't have the skills
([23:53:38] @Xuric) i agree
([23:53:49] @Neovanglist[Work]) well when it comes to programmers, we need someone familiar with C/C++, and with a unix development environment
* ([23:53:50] +FireSlash) somehow feels he is being targeted here
([23:54:17] @Neovanglist[Work]) perferrabily someone familiar with X programming and fluxbox, or someone willing to learn
([23:54:39] @minddog) you give a new programmer a task, if they complete it, give them a harder task, you'll figure out where they will be of most use
([23:54:45] @Neovanglist[Work]) the best way for people to help is to contribute patches to CVS
([23:55:00] @Neovanglist[Work]) or rather
([23:55:04] @minddog) if they fail the first task, give them smaller ones that are equally as difficult
([23:55:07] @Neovanglist[Work]) to send patches fia the mailing list
([23:55:15] @Xuric) which list?
([23:55:24] @Neovanglist[Work])
([23:55:30] @Neovanglist[Work]) mailing lists are down atm
([23:55:30] @Xuric) k
([23:55:33] @Neovanglist[Work]) I just fixed e-mail last night
([23:55:34] @Xuric) aww
([23:55:49] @Neovanglist[Work]) if we find their patches useful and proper, then we'll consider them for write access to cVS
([23:55:50] @Neovanglist[Work]) *CVS
([23:55:54] @Neovanglist[Work]) which would make them a developer
([23:56:19] @Zn4k) I actually haven't really diff-ed manually too much to creat patches, only used to having cvs do it for me
([23:56:21] @minddog) are we using sourceforge for everything?
([23:56:29] @Zn4k) create*
([23:56:29] @minddog) sf has become a little icky these days
([23:56:37] @Neovanglist[Work]) I'm going to use the front's CVS server
([23:56:42] @Neovanglist[Work]) I hate sf's CVS
([23:56:43] +FireSlash) sf refuses all my projects.
([23:57:26] @Zn4k) btw I use the latest cvs fluxbox
([23:57:29] @Xuric) we need anything besides programmers?
([23:57:36] @Zn4k) and it's updated quite often, with major changes
([23:57:39] @Neovanglist[Work]) Zn4k: I'm going to set up CVS this week, and have you commit
([23:57:45] @Neovanglist[Work]) we also need graphic artists
([23:57:50] @minddog) 3d and 2d artists
([23:57:59] @Xuric) capable of?
([23:58:07] @Neovanglist[Work]) doing good graphic art?
([23:58:07] +E0x) i can do something 2d stuff
([23:58:13] +E0x) but i not good
([23:58:34] @Zn4k) I'm a very decent 3d artist, but ofcourse I wouldn't want to take away from the coding
([23:58:44] @Neovanglist[Work]) pretty much we need good graphic designers to help with some of the UI design and such
([23:58:52] +FireSlash) Today = Tomorrow. Hence, Tomorrow == today... oO
([23:58:57] +E0x) Zn4k keep coding baby keep coding :)
([23:59:02] @Zn4k) hehe
([23:59:07] +FireSlash) Its a damn good think the world isn't written inC
([23:59:16] @Neovanglist[Work]) particuarly when we start doing the task/menubar
([23:59:26] @Neovanglist[Work]) and for icons and etc
([23:59:34] +FireSlash) I think it would be kind of neat to do a circular task bar...
([23:59:42] +E0x) i can do something , i guess
([23:59:56] @Neovanglist[Work]) yo, I gotta run home
([00:00:00] @Neovanglist[Work]) bb in like 10 minutes
([00:00:05] +FireSlash) gah.
([00:00:06] +E0x) k
([00:00:07] @Xuric) so graphic artists capable of doing widget-design?
([00:00:12] @Neovanglist[Work]) Xuric: yes
([00:00:17] @Xuric) k
([00:00:19] @Neovanglist[Work]) and more specificlly UI design
([00:00:43] @Xuric) how so, though?
([00:00:47] @Xuric) (maybe this is me being dense)
([00:00:50] @Neovanglist[Work]) UI elements
([00:00:57] @Xuric) what parts? (give examples)
([00:01:00] +FireSlash) So, how ARE we going to do the UI? Are we using fluxbox's code and subclassing it, or are we going to write our own code and hack fluxbox to work with it?
([00:01:02] @Neovanglist[Work]) any pars >_<!!!
([00:01:04] @Neovanglist[Work]) *parts
([00:01:11] @Neovanglist[Work]) ok I'll brb
([00:02:16] @Zn4k) k
([00:02:49] @Xuric) sleep(10 * _MINUTES)
<§> [00:04:13] #LainOS: FireSlash has quit: Quit: Sorry, I'll catch the logs, I work tomorrow and I seriously need to finish up some scripts before I go.
([00:04:37] @Zn4k) I don't think FireSlash knew what was appropriate to say
([00:05:14] @Xuric) I still don't know what the Artists need to design
([00:05:25] @Xuric) the looks of the "windows"
([00:05:36] @Zn4k) mabey for later on
([00:05:37] @Xuric) (damnit! we need a better term!)
([00:05:46] @Zn4k) lol
([00:05:55] @Xuric) well, widgets, i understand... but what else?
([00:06:14] @Zn4k) that seems like it would be more appropriate for 3d
([00:06:21] @Zn4k) for the 3d UI
([00:06:23] +E0x) Xuric icons , splash
([00:06:27] +E0x) something like that
* ([00:06:34] +E0x) i think
([00:06:39] @Zn4k) with a WM though
([00:06:40] @Xuric) i'm not sure either..
([00:06:44] +E0x) Xuric aterm 4 u
([00:06:46] @Zn4k) you usually don't have a splash screen
([00:06:51] @Zn4k) since they usually load quickly
([00:07:29] +E0x) well in the desktop enviroment version i think need one
([00:07:31] @Xuric) at least, we'd hope it'd be fast enough not to need a cover-sheet :)
([00:07:44] +E0x) like kde or gnome
([00:07:44] @Zn4k) that kinda worries me though
([00:08:09] @Zn4k) I hope neo didn't mean icons , like having a window displaying a directory like kde does
([00:08:12] @Zn4k) and windows
([00:08:27] @Zn4k) leads to people dumping everything on their desktop
([00:08:29] @Zn4k) ug o_o
([00:08:32] @Xuric) yeah
([00:09:17] @Xuric) perhaps we can have a GA do the aesthetic behavior for the launcher, (look of) "window" manipulation (opening, closing, resizing, etc)
([00:09:17] +E0x) <Neovanglist[Work]> I'm thinking lets add a desktop environment for 1.5
([00:09:18] +E0x) <Neovanglist[Work]> like a background, to put icons on and such
([00:09:18] +E0x) <Neovanglist[Work]> kind of like what KDE and Gnome have
([00:09:38] @Xuric) well
([00:09:53] @Xuric) we're not in the optimum environ yet. so we might have to resort to Icons for the time being
([00:10:30] @Zn4k) I don't see why
([00:10:45] @Zn4k) right now for the iconic state fluxbox puts everything in the bar
([00:11:04] +E0x) well , waiting for neo
([00:11:25] @Zn4k) ok
* ([00:11:29] +E0x)
([00:11:47] +E0x) <E0x> lite how xfce4 /
([00:11:48] +E0x) <E0x> ?
([00:11:48] +E0x) <E0x%gt; lite how xfce4 /
([00:11:48] +E0x) <E0x> ?
([00:12:07] +E0x) <Neovanglist[Work]> something like that
([00:12:15] @Zn4k) xfce4 is just a bar as far as I know
([00:12:40] @minddog) hey Neovanglist
([00:12:44] @Neovanglist) let me clarify
([00:12:56] @Neovanglist) I want to make LainWM something more like a Desktop Environment eventually
([00:12:59] @Neovanglist) brb agian real quick
([00:13:07] @Zn4k) k
* ([00:15:26] +E0x) started think whicth neo live in IRAQ , can't stay calm
([00:16:39] @Zn4k) See I don't really see what a desktop enviroment has aon a WM besides just being "heavY'
([00:18:41] @minddog) haha
([00:18:46] @minddog) greg just 0wn3d
([00:18:52] +Ritalin) o_o
([00:18:57] @minddog) locked me in !
([00:18:58] @minddog) =)
([00:19:02] @Neovanglist) lol
([00:19:28] @Zn4k) ...
([00:19:40] @Neovanglist) E0x: ?
([00:19:50] +E0x) Neovanglist neverming
([00:19:52] +E0x) Neovanglist nevermind
([00:19:54] @Neovanglist) lol ok
([00:20:36] @Zn4k) let me get this straight
([00:21:02] @Zn4k) they call it a desktop enviroment, but I really see it basically as an OS
([00:21:36] @Zn4k) just a set of tools compiled together to allow operations to happen
([00:21:38] @Neovanglist) well
([00:21:40] @minddog) an OS by definition is a suite tools that allow interactivity with a computer
([00:21:42] @Neovanglist) not an OS
([00:21:49] @Neovanglist) and OS is the kernel+userland
([00:21:57] @Zn4k) well I see an OS as what minddog defined it
([00:21:59] @Neovanglist) it's a Desktop Environment
([00:22:14] @Neovanglist) kind of like KDE or Gnome
([00:22:17] @Zn4k) a Desktop Enviroment has always sounded invented to me by KDE and Gnome
([00:22:18] @minddog) a Desktop Environment is within the domain of an Operating System
([00:22:28] @Zn4k) the term
([00:22:30] @Zn4k) buzz
([00:22:36] @Neovanglist) it's called an DE :P
([00:22:42] +Ritalin) Kewl desktop enviremoent lolzzz
([00:22:43] @Zn4k) and when you see DE
([00:22:49] @Zn4k) it sounds like you are trying to copy Gnome or Kde
([00:22:53] @Neovanglist) well
([00:22:58] @Neovanglist) DE was DE before KDE
([00:23:00] @Neovanglist) think of CDE
([00:23:01] @minddog) uh oh Ritalin z'd her laugh >_<
([00:23:06] @Zn4k) I was about to sayt hat
([00:23:27] @Zn4k) WM's tend now to come with more config tools
([00:23:39] @Zn4k) and perform more than their perpose under ICCCM
([00:23:44] +Ritalin) damn right I did lolz lol
([00:23:44] @Zn4k) well except for fvwm ;)
([00:23:48] @Neovanglist) lol
([00:23:56] @Neovanglist) well I think LainWM is the best nam
([00:23:57] @Neovanglist) *name
([00:24:02] @Neovanglist) perhaps LainWM+Extensions?
([00:24:08] @Neovanglist) the Extensions being the other DE like things
([00:24:18] @Neovanglist) I mean look like any window manager with a tool/taskbar
([00:24:20] @minddog) Mandrake has some really cool GUI stuff for system config
([00:24:21] @Zn4k) I just think of it as tools
([00:24:22] @Neovanglist) like blackbox, or FVWM
([00:24:26] @Neovanglist) technically
([00:24:42] @Neovanglist) ANYTHING beyond the window handlers and iconification handling is beyond the domain of a WM
([00:24:48] @Neovanglist) but WM is a term taken loosley now
([00:24:53] @Neovanglist) *loosly
([00:25:48] @Zn4k) btw there is quite a difference in fluxbox code as far as the toolkits are concerned, Fluxbox actually has a seperate toolkit developed just for the WM
([00:25:56] @Zn4k) I have no idea how portable it would be though
([00:26:04] @Zn4k) is
([00:26:09] @Zn4k) since it's used just for the WM
([00:26:27] @Zn4k) alot of desktop enviroments use a 3rd party toolkit anyway
([00:26:53] +E0x) right
([00:27:35] @Neovanglist) you mean a drawing toolkit?
([00:27:37] @Zn4k) anyone else want to talk
([00:27:40] @Neovanglist) qt/gtk type of thing?
([00:27:42] @Zn4k) yeah Neo
([00:27:49] @Neovanglist) yea, I'd expect as much
([00:28:02] @Zn4k) so you don't have to deal directly with X, but I think you still have to know X quit a bit to use the FbTk as it is
([00:28:10] @Neovanglist) right
([00:28:39] @Zn4k) all it really does is impliment relevent X functionality into member functions with simular names
([00:28:47] @Zn4k) similar*
([00:29:33] @Zn4k) like FbWindow is derived from FbDrawable
([00:30:43] @Zn4k) anyone else wanna say something ;)
* ([00:30:51] @Neovanglist) is looking into xfce
([00:31:04] @Xuric) i have no input on the matter
([00:31:32] @Neovanglist) I think XFCE is really the mark of what we are headed toward with LainWM
([00:31:33] +E0x) Neovanglist talk about what do u spect do with design team
([00:32:23] @Neovanglist) well
([00:32:29] @Neovanglist) the design team will need to do a few things
([00:32:34] @minddog) >_< drama!
([00:32:38] @minddog) drama++
* ([00:32:45] +E0x) hehe
([00:32:46] @Zn4k) what do you really want to do different neo
([00:32:57] @Zn4k) I mean, Xfce is already functional
([00:33:01] @Neovanglist) right
([00:33:29] @Neovanglist) well the thing is
([00:33:46] @Neovanglist) Xfce is a good Desktop Environment, but it lacks some of the things a more WM centric environment such as FluxBox have
([00:34:10] @Zn4k) like what?
([00:34:12] +E0x) what thing ?
([00:34:20] @Neovanglist) tabbing for one
([00:34:39] +E0x) k. any more ?
([00:34:55] @Zn4k) well
([00:34:56] @Neovanglist) I'm not familiar enough with Xfce to really know much beyond that point
([00:35:06] +E0x) seudotransparent
([00:35:10] @Zn4k) I didn't think that was usually the perpose of a DE, since tabbing seems to be more of the relm of the WM
([00:35:18] @Neovanglist) right, thats my point
([00:35:28] @Neovanglist) we would be taking a strong WM, and adding DE functionality
([00:35:31] @Neovanglist) instead of vice versa
([00:35:32] @Zn4k) and since you usually use a seperate Wm with a DE
([00:35:41] +E0x) a hibry
([00:35:54] @Neovanglist) well I'd like to intergrate them for the sake of fluidity between elements
([00:35:57] +E0x) wm/DE hybri
([00:36:20] +E0x)
([00:36:22] @Zn4k) alot of the things in the DE are just seperate tools though
([00:36:22] @Xuric) and we just call this union LainUI and be done with it?
([00:36:22] @Neovanglist) it's a lot easier to streamline funcitonality and communication between your panel and your menu when they are part of the same application
* ([00:36:31] @minddog) suggests making some visual representations of how the different components will communicate
([00:36:39] @Neovanglist) ahh, but UI would infer it's a display server :P
([00:37:02] @Neovanglist) well
([00:37:08] @Xuric) though instead, it's the content-displayer/manipulator
([00:37:22] @Neovanglist) perhaps we should restructure it into LainDE
([00:37:27] @Neovanglist) because that makes a lot of sense later down the road
([00:38:04] @Neovanglist) since it's your "Desktop Environment" it would be what portrays our entire concept of the LainOS package
([00:38:22] @Neovanglist) ahh!!
([00:38:26] @Neovanglist) I've got it!
([00:38:28] @Zn4k) ?
([00:38:37] @Xuric) "eurika" he says...
([00:38:37] +E0x) minddog drama ?
([00:38:45] @Neovanglist) we already have the plan for LainWM, and LainDM, LainAM and such
([00:38:45] @Xuric) drama++
([00:39:07] @Neovanglist) lets just say that LainWM + LainWM + LainAM + Blah = The Lain Desktop Environment
([00:39:14] @minddog) E0x: stupid people complaining about lifes problems in front of me
([00:39:16] @Xuric) done'
([00:39:18] @Neovanglist) and when you include the kernel, and userland you get LainOS
([00:39:27] @Zn4k) k
([00:39:49] @Neovanglist) we can create the stuff like the panel, such seperately
([00:39:55] @Neovanglist) we just need to think up a LainXX name for them
([00:40:14] @Neovanglist) I got it
([00:40:20] @Neovanglist) the panel would be part of LainWM
([00:40:22] @Xuric) so we'd have each major component of a DE have it's own app-name?
([00:40:25] @Neovanglist) since it has to do with iconification
([00:40:28] @Neovanglist) Xuric: right
([00:40:36] @Neovanglist) and the icons on the desktop and such
([00:40:40] @Xuric) this would make modifying certain parts easier
([00:40:44] @Neovanglist) would be part of LainFM ( File Manager )
([00:40:53] @Neovanglist) since you would have such things on your desktop as icons
([00:41:06] @minddog) LainFS -> plans for a unique filesystem?
([00:41:09] @Neovanglist) LainCP would be the control panel for the whole bunch
([00:41:18] @Zn4k) Neo
([00:41:19] @Neovanglist) minddog: a long time ago, we're not touching on that till a ways down the road
([00:41:23] @Neovanglist) Zn4k: ?
([00:41:30] @minddog) i got dibs on that!
([00:41:34] @Xuric) you can have it
([00:41:34] @Zn4k) do you mean by icons, as in the ICONIFY state of a window, or representation of files in a directory
([00:41:46] @Neovanglist) well by "icons"
([00:41:54] @Neovanglist) I mean the shortcuts and such
([00:41:56] @Xuric) you mean little pictures which can stand ofr anything
([00:42:02] @Neovanglist) the kind of things you put on your desktop as icons
([00:42:10] @Neovanglist) when I say Iconify I mean it referring to windows
([00:42:17] @minddog) taskbar?
([00:42:29] @Neovanglist) you mean panel :P
([00:42:29] @Zn4k) well fvwm makes everything an icon
([00:42:32] @Zn4k) when you minimize
([00:42:35] @Zn4k) and puts it on the desktop
([00:42:51] @minddog) Neovanglist: taskbar in windows, taskpanel in KDE
([00:42:58] @Neovanglist) whatever
([00:42:59] @Neovanglist) in any case
([00:43:05] @Neovanglist) I'd much rather see a panel type deal
([00:43:18] @Neovanglist) that has your open/iconified windows, and maybe a program menu and shortcuts
([00:43:27] @minddog) the taskpanel is really just a kde applet
([00:43:28] @Neovanglist) that would be part of the WM since it dealt with the state of windows
([00:43:53] @minddog) part of a bigger IO system
([00:44:34] @minddog) have you decided on a communication base, how will all components speak to each other?
([00:44:49] @Zn4k) minddog thats just with the ICCCM for basic stuff
([00:45:03] @minddog) ICCCN ?
([00:45:08] @Zn4k) no
([00:45:45] @Neovanglist) hrmm
([00:45:46] @Neovanglist) alright then
([00:45:47] @minddog) can you expand on what you mean
([00:45:48] @Zn4k) ICCCM is the manual that defines the communcations for very things, including client->window manager and windowmanager->client communication
([00:46:14] @minddog) i'm talking about generic IPC
([00:46:20] @minddog) used in applications
([00:46:36] @Zn4k) well anything seperate from X is usually implimented into the toolkit
([00:47:05] @Zn4k) thats why gtk programs get along nicely with each other
([00:47:28] @minddog) kde uses DCOP
([00:47:30] @Neovanglist) alright, here the the plan
([00:47:32] @Neovanglist) I hate DCOP.
([00:47:43] @minddog) windows uses COM
([00:47:56] @Neovanglist) I have a much better idea
([00:48:07] @Zn4k) both makes my bowels loosen
([00:48:08] @Neovanglist) use ApresNET for communication./
([00:48:14] @Xuric) .....
([00:48:15] @Xuric) lol
([00:48:18] @Neovanglist) minddog knwos where I'm going
([00:48:19] @Xuric) somehow i should have seen that coming
([00:48:21] @Neovanglist) *knows
* ([00:48:29] @minddog) was waiting for that one ;)
([00:48:45] @minddog) but apresnet should be at the kernel level and a userspace apresnet api for application developers
([00:48:46] @Neovanglist) with ApresNET we can establish communication extremely easily
([00:48:54] @Neovanglist) eh?
([00:49:06] @Neovanglist) why would anything userland related talk to the kernel like that?
([00:49:08] @minddog) apresnet interface alike a network interface
([00:49:14] @Neovanglist) especially signaling and communicaiton
([00:49:18] @Zn4k) Neo I thought ApresNET just defined a sorta encapsulated protocol for networking
([00:49:25] @minddog) distributing processes
([00:49:26] @Neovanglist) Zn4k: it's an open Distribution API
([00:49:34] @Neovanglist) it can be used to distributed networking
([00:49:47] @Neovanglist) but it can also be used with domain sockets for local process communcation and data distribution
([00:49:51] @minddog) the application would be abstract to the operating system's node
([00:49:57] @Xuric) aww.w. where's Fireslash? he'd love to hear the word 'distributed' so rampantly used
([00:50:32] @Neovanglist) in any case
([00:50:38] @Neovanglist) lets not get too wraped up in that
([00:50:41] @Zn4k) k
([00:50:54] @Neovanglist) I will draw out the way things will communicate and be laid out
([00:50:58] @Neovanglist) I'll do that some time before 1.5
([00:51:06] @minddog) visuals!
([00:51:13] @Neovanglist) for now lets just concentrate on getting 1.4 out and usable
([00:51:14] @Xuric) heh
([00:51:20] @Xuric) minddog wants visual aide's
([00:51:28] @Neovanglist) minddog and his xfig
([00:51:38] @minddog) xfig dat shiat
([00:51:58] @Zn4k) ok
([00:52:07] @Zn4k) well it's almost 12 here
([00:52:21] @Neovanglist) alrighty
([00:52:35] @Neovanglist) anything else anyone wants to add?
([00:52:44] @Zn4k) so I'll talk to you on monday probally with some class prototyped probally
([00:52:50] @Zn4k) for the window and menu
([00:52:56] @Neovanglist) 'k'k
([00:52:59] @Zn4k) dunno if I'll have time to do anything tommorow
([00:53:01] @Zn4k) cya
([00:53:02] @Neovanglist) thats cool
([00:53:03] @Neovanglist) later man
([00:53:07] @minddog) --> AntiFreeze ( has joined #dotgnu
([00:53:11] @minddog) ROFLMAO
([00:53:14] @Neovanglist) minddog: I saw that
([00:53:15] @Zn4k) going to sleep now
([00:53:19] @Neovanglist) gnight Zn4k
([00:53:24] @minddog) gnite Zn4k
([00:53:51] +E0x) good nite Zn4k
([00:54:23] @Xuric) ciao mate
([00:54:48] @Xuric) can we recap?
([00:54:53] @Xuric) i forgot all the decisions we made :)
([00:54:56] @Neovanglist) lol
([00:56:54] @Xuric) lets see... we did version-control....
([00:57:17] @Xuric) next version will be 1.4.0 anything needed to make that work better will be 1.4.x
([00:57:29] @Xuric) the next version (with new features) will be 1.5.0
([00:58:25] @Xuric) zn4k will be trying to hack transparencies into the basic class of window in Fluxbox (right?)
([00:59:02] @Neovanglist) window handlers and menus
([00:59:29] @Xuric) right
([01:00:13] @Xuric) we're presently needing C/C++ coders with either knowledge-of X / Fluxbox, or the desire to learn...
([01:00:20] @Xuric) plus graphic artists to design basic UI elements
([01:01:12] @Neovanglist) right
([01:01:51] @Xuric) anything else worth noting?
([01:03:15] @Neovanglist) umm
([01:03:44] @Neovanglist) that the mailing list are down for the moment, but will be back up soon and new mailing list instructions will follow
([01:03:56] @Xuric) k
([01:04:58] @Xuric) all right.. i think we can call this a meeting.