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LainOS Developers Meeting #3
May 3rd, 2003 (#LainOSDev)
Topic: "Technology Testing/3D UI Demos and Other Various Things"

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[19:03] [Neovanglist] first lets address darth's suggestion
[19:04] [Neovanglist] should LainOS be strictly workstation focused, or should we take into consideration server support
[19:04] <darthchung> personally, I don't see the point in adding server support.
[19:04] <darthchung> the features that we'll be adding aren't especially useful to servers in any way.
[19:04] <darthchung> you could argue about biometric authentication, but in reality, any server worth its weight is already physically secured.
[19:04] [Neovanglist] I agree
[19:05] <darthchung> cutting out server functions not only makes it easier on us, but lets us really focus down.
[19:05] [Neovanglist] well another thing
[19:05] [Neovanglist] is that if we are shooting for serving
[19:05] [Neovanglist] security becomes a much much larger issue
[19:05] <darthchung> also, all of the extra features are going to consume resources; hardly a good thing for servers.
[19:05] [Neovanglist] indeed
[19:06] [Neovanglist] alright, so that settles that (unless anyone else has any comments)
[19:06] [Neovanglist] next, we need to start making hard progress on LainWM
[19:06] <darthchung> have we decided on a definite feature set?
[19:06] [Neovanglist] no, but the problem is we aren't getting enough public feedback to get a good idea base
[19:07] <darthchung> oh, just to make things more complicated, I wanted to throw this out.
[19:07] <darthchung>
[19:07] <darthchung> I really like the interface, and I could see it becoming usable as a desktop.
[19:08] <darthchung> but instead of having it always in 3d space, have it such that you hit a button (say win) to access 3d space.
[19:08] <darthchung> otherwise, it always focused on a window.
[19:08] <darthchung> (the window being where the word would be in the current implementation)
[19:09] [Neovanglist] yea, I see where you're going
[19:09] [Neovanglist] but it's still very linear
[19:09] [Neovanglist] in a way
[19:09] <malenfant> something with a desktop like xcruise (but more organized, and click to navigate) with a 2D workspace for documents would be interesting
[19:09] [Neovanglist] you move from word directly to word
[19:09] <darthchung> what if our design let you move from any word to any other word?
[19:09] <darthchung> xcruise? link?
[19:10] <malenfant> one sec..
[19:10] <darthchung> what I find amazing is that these guys did it with basically a web-browser.
[19:10] <darthchung> LainWM would need to be more complex, but think of how little resources visual thesaurus is taking up. and what few hardware requirements there are.
[19:10] <malenfant>
[19:11] [Neovanglist] ahh I've used that before
[19:12] [Neovanglist] the thing is
[19:12] <malenfant> with some more attention to organizing where things go, and making things more visible, it could become very usable
[19:13] [Neovanglist] hrmm
[19:14] [Neovanglist] ok lets keep things flowing
[19:14] [Neovanglist] the thing I don't see though
[19:15] [Neovanglist] is how to impliment what visualthesaurus does in a WM way
[19:15] <darthchung> it's a java plugin into a browser.
[19:15] <darthchung> people have already written window managers that let you use webpages as backgrounds, so that's a start.
[19:16] <darthchung> we'd have to find some way for the WM to "user applications as webpages" in a sense,
[19:16] <darthchung> and have the WM load these apps as webpages where the words are now.
[19:16] <darthchung> as for organization, we could have the applications clustered together, somewhat like what windows XP does.
[19:17] [Neovanglist] yea, but is that really the most elegant, efficent way to do that?
[19:17] <darthchung> but again, unless we want to write it from the ground up, we'd have to find the source somehow, and I doubt that a commercial company is going to give away source.
[19:17] <darthchung> I think we agree that MS's implementation of a 3D workspace, sucks, right?
[19:17] [Neovanglist] yes
[19:17] <darthchung> that is, the long hallway with picture frames on the walls?
[19:17] [Neovanglist] yea, it's retarted
[19:17] <darthchung> truth be told, I'm not happy with 3dna's implementatin either. a virtual house?
[19:18] <darthchung> you can't see behind you, so that's a waste.
[19:18] <darthchung> earlier, Xuric told me to repeat:
[19:18] <darthchung> I'm all for an animated desktop... has to be fluid though
[19:18] <darthchung> also, anything we substitute for the 'taskbar' has to be SIMPLE and EASY...
[19:18] <darthchung> the idea of digging with transparency can get tedious when you have 9 windows open"
[19:18] <darthchung> I like my idea of digging, but Xuric is right; once you have a lot of windows, it's more of a nuisance than a help.
[19:19] [Neovanglist] well
[19:19] [Neovanglist] here is the thing
[19:19] [Neovanglist] if programs are in program groups
[19:19] [Neovanglist] the different levels of depth (the things you dig to and from)
[19:19] [Neovanglist] are on rings a certian distance from the middle
[19:19] [Neovanglist] each app isn't op top of the other
[19:20] [Neovanglist] it might be on the depth level in front of it and to the right
[19:20] [Neovanglist] so if you wanted to go to ring 2, app 3
[19:20] <minddog> hey
[19:20] [Neovanglist] you'd hit like alt+2+3
[19:20] [Neovanglist] hey there minddog
[19:20] <darthchung> you'd have to remember which ring/depth each app was on?
[19:20] [Neovanglist] not really
[19:21] <darthchung> they're all visible (to some degree) simultaneously? that is, the whole ring system?
[19:21] [Neovanglist] hit alt, and a box pops up with the groups, hit the group number (2) and next to the other box a box comes up with the list of apps in that ring
[19:21] [Neovanglist] well they don't have to all be visable at once, but you would for example hit alt, and it would zoom out a bit
[19:22] [Neovanglist] showing more of the would around that window
[19:22] <malenfant> and -- the zoom section may be of interest
[19:24] [Neovanglist] hrnn
[19:24] [Neovanglist] *hrmm
[19:24] [Neovanglist] and welcome minddog
[19:24] [Neovanglist] glad you could join us
[19:25] <minddog> thanks, just listening =)
[19:25] [Neovanglist] fell free to talk and contribute
[19:25] [Neovanglist] *feel
[19:25] [Neovanglist] well here is what I was thinking
[19:26] [Neovanglist] we can talk, and debate these things all we want, but we really won't know how well/what works until we try
[19:26] [Neovanglist] so lets start some technology tests, and do some experimentation
[19:26] <darthchung> I hope you mean small scale. : ) like flash demos?
[19:26] [Neovanglist] collect data on what does and doesn't work, what needs to be improved/rethought, and apply it to LainWM
[19:27] [Neovanglist] I mean any scale, flash demos, OpenGL apps, 3d renderings
[19:29] [Neovanglist] from that we can better picture what LainOS should be
[19:29] <darthchung> sounds good.
[19:29] [Neovanglist] alright, cool. I'll write up guidelines for it tonight and post it on the stie
[19:29] [Neovanglist] *site
[19:30] [Neovanglist] also
[19:30] [Neovanglist] we need to get some PR going
[19:30] [Neovanglist] too few people know about us, and what we are doing
[19:31] <darthchung> I almost want to say that maybe we should hold back on announcing our presence.
[19:31] [Neovanglist] I've thought the same thing
[19:31] <darthchung> a year ago, when I first heard about LainOS, it was all over the place.
[19:31] <darthchung> EVERYONE was talking about the people who integrated X into the kernel.
[19:32] <darthchung> a few days ago, I did another quick search, and I turned up three pages of people saying *cough*vaporware*cough*
[19:32] <darthchung> I'd rather we have something to show them (however primitive), and then announce ourselves.
[19:32] <darthchung> it seems that a lot of people are confused about how much/little progress has been made, and I'd rather not add to that confusion.
[19:32] [Neovanglist] then we need to start working on getting some solid concepts out in code
[19:33] <darthchung> absolutely.
[19:33] * malenfant has never heard of LainOS before now
[19:33] <darthchung> i think running the tech tests, and getting feedback is going to help tremendously in getting our asses into gear
[19:33] [Neovanglist] yea, me too
[19:33] [Neovanglist] lets do this
[19:33] [Neovanglist] do you know any opengl/sdl?
[19:34] <darthchung> malenfant, I think I first heard of LaiOS last june (ironically, months before I saw Lain, so I REALLY had no clue what LainOS was supposed to be)
[19:34] <darthchung> no opengl.
[19:34] <darthchung> honestly, I'm not much of a coder. but I'm a fast learner, and I've got the summer before me.
[19:34] [Neovanglist] check out this site
[19:34] [Neovanglist] it's a great into to graphics programming on all platforms
[19:34] [Neovanglist] from Windows to Mac to Solaris
[19:34] <darthchung> aight, I'll look into it later tonight.
[19:34] [Neovanglist] and everything in-between
[19:35] <malenfant> I know only a little SDL... I'm very familiar with traditional GUI programming
[19:35] [Neovanglist] that will help tremendously
[19:35] [Neovanglist] I'm experienced with SDL and opengl, but no so with GUI programming
[19:35] [Neovanglist] that is if you'd like to contribute to us
[19:36] * darthchung shakes fist threateningly at minddog
[19:36] <malenfant> I'll have to see more about what the project is about, and if time permits... so far, sounds interesting :)
[19:36] [Neovanglist] cool, stay in touch
[19:36] [Neovanglist] what I can start doing is some simple opengl demos
[19:37] [Neovanglist] handling blank "would be" windows in a 3d space
[19:37] <darthchung> that was my plan, but I was going to do it in flash
[19:38] [Neovanglist] I think OpenGL is a better idea because it will allow us to more directly impliment what we learn into LainWM
[19:38] [Neovanglist] and get some code out to show people
[19:39] <darthchung> I'll see how much time I've got; the next two weeks are finals season for me.
[19:39] [Neovanglist] same for me
[19:40] [Neovanglist] well the next meeting is two weeks from today
[19:40] [Neovanglist] may 17th
[19:41] <darthchung> aight.
[19:46] <darthchung> what else do we want to touch on tonight?
[19:47] [Neovanglist] well thats mostly it
[19:47] * Neovanglist thinks
[19:48] [Neovanglist] nope, I think thats it
[19:48] [Neovanglist] anybody?
[19:48] <darthchung> alright, so our goals for the next two weeks are to put together some demos to get feedback
[19:48] <darthchung> (and of course to think of features to put into the demos.)
[19:49] [Neovanglist] yup
[19:49] <darthchung> aight; I'll see you guys in two weeks then.
[19:49] <darthchung> good luck on your finals.
[19:51] [Neovanglist] you too
[19:51] <malenfant> I will try to drum up some time to do some more SDL, and do a few things with that... also perhaps look at DirectFB